That is exactly what it felt like tonight at the informational meeting conducted by Leaping Sports Management and Supervisor Walters on the proposed new ice facility. Jeff Walker gave almost the exact same power point presentation as the last meeting with just a few more details. This time he gave out some of the projected user fees for ice time and field time. Other than that it was nothing more than a dance around the major issue of finance. The biggest question was if the town would be held responsible for any money should Leaping Sports default on the loan through the Hamburg Development Corporation. Walters first answered no and that the HDC would be fully responsible for paying off the loan. Then a few moments later he stated that the town would never allow the Ice Facility to close down and the town would then pick up any outstanding costs to keep it open and manage it ourselves.
This of course created much confusion and I pulled the answer out of Supervisor Walters when it was my turn to speak. The answer is yes, the town would pick up the balance of the loan and have to possibly increase taxes if Leaping Sports Management falters and fails. Over and over people tried to get specific figures about what the tax increase would be, what the total cost of the project is, what the interest rate is on this much money and so on. Many questions were met with innuendo and conjecture for answers.
I asked if the town budget would be decreased and if our tax burden would be lightened by the amount of money freed up by the removal of the new Ice Facility from the tax rolls? I was told yes, but then Supervisor Walters quickly re-answered that there would be no way to know what our future tax burden would be in the town. Another person asked what would happen to the people who work at the Ice Arena now. Supervisor Walters answered that he actually expected that the Recreation Department would be free to find bigger and better projects for these people to continue to work on and he actually expected to increase the size of the Recreation Department.
At that point my jaw about hit the floor because what in the hell is the point of a public private partnership if it is not going to reduce the size and cost of government? I called Supervisor Walters out on that one as well. I then asked how much money Leaping Sports Management was going to put up front to keep their guarantee of payment for a full seven years. No-one could give me a straight answer and I felt as if Walters and Leaping Sports simply wants us to accept his “promise” to pay. I made it quite clear that wasn’t good enough and I would like to see a significant amount of money up front.
I then moved to why it was necessary to have a referendum this month when their are so many unanswered questions still out there? The answer given was because the interest rates would never be better. Well if I had a bull shit meter available it would have told me that Walters was so full of shit his eyes were turning brown. It’s obvious that they want this done now because only people interested in the Ice Facility are watching this closely and the majority are for the project. If they put this at the voting machine in November, it becomes a very political issue with the whole town watching. Walters should have just told the truth because he hurt himself badly with that answer.
Supervisor Walters did say that if the town was to do this project without a private partnership it would result in a 10% tax increase for Hamburg residents. Should Leaping Sports fail, the resulting tax increase would be far lower but ultimately based on when they defaulted and how much remains unpaid. I asked for a specific cost benefit tax analysis to allow the residents to study the issue and make an informed decision prior to the referendum, but I really don’t think it will happen.
I firmly believe that the town should give us a year by year payment schedule with the resulting interest and tax possibilities on a default, at different time frames. Leaping Sports Management then revealed that they will be paying approximately 712K a year in interest on the loan. They also proclaimed that this new building will be a “green” facility. It will cost between 10 -12 million dollars and they are guaranteeing the first seven years of mortgage payments. They also expect to rent ice out for $179 /hr on the low end and $124/hr for the fieldhouse on the low end.
Jeff Walker promised to send me a copy of the detailed projected fee schedule for all activities at the new facility. I won’t hold my breath.
My final opinion is simply that we need to approve and vote yes to this. It’s time to get this town out of the recreation business and this is the first step in that agenda. We can fight later on what to do with displaced workers! I hammered Supervisor Walters pretty good and I know he didn’t expect it from me. All I can say is that even though I support this project, I am not a puppet to make it happen. I live here and pay taxes here like everyone else and if this project has the potential to go bust, I want to know what I’m on the hook for like everyone else.
the figure you talk about 712K that was the loan payment the max they would pay per year, i agree a lot of unanswered questions, but it is a start to something good
After last nights meeting and the lack of clear answers that this would be a win win project for the taxpayers of Hamburg. I will be voting against this project, along with all of my family and friends.
In these uncertain times we as taxpayers don’t need to take on additional risk of either saddling ourselves or our children with the potential for additional taxes for a project doomed to fail from the beginning. Why wasn’t this information put out earlier, and posted on the Town web site?
Unless the Hamburg SUN and Buffalo News digs into the numbers and lays out how this would work financially for the Taxpayers – I VOTE NO.
Sad to say this will be Supervisors Walters’s first loss at the ballot box.
i guess ben and others are ok paying their taxes for an inefficiently run ice rink now and paying even more in 1-2 years when the renovations have to be done to keep the doors open. There is no risk in that, we just know we have to pay. Makes perfect sense.
Panama……Finially someone with brains….Congrats…That is the point…..
Lets all sit back and watch…..lets not try something new…..that is the way people think…its sad and I mean SAD
I think Walters and Leaping Sports needs to give us a month by month breakdown of the finances and the risk to our tax structure should this company fold at any single point. If they do that then they will gain my trust from being open and honest. Keeping us in the dark only makes me think something is fishy here.
I think the people of Hamburg need to realize that we have 2 gentlemen with connections and understanding of what they are doing. I do agree that we need budget information and costs for the project. But the problem that exists before us is a chance to remodel a facility that is in badly needed upgrades with expansion. We can let these 2 gentlemen fund this plan, or in the next year or two we as tax payers can pay for the remodel of one rink that we will complain about either way. A better idea would be to just close it completely if we don’t let this pass because we will probably see a large increase our taxes. As tax payers we need to realize that the building is not beening mantained properly and it will soon be in violation of many building codes.
Jack, you could say the same thing about Bill stachowski. He has all the understanding of just how bad our state economy is and he just voted to raise your taxes. Just because Leaping Sports Management have people who know how this works doesn’t mean I trust them with my tax dollars. I want to know what the real risk is before I vote, not when it’s to late to do anything about it.
After thinking about the condition of the Federal and State budgets it’s time to get government back to the basics of providing needed services (highway and Police), I now recommend closing the ice rink completely. If this is such a good business idea I’m sure the people pushing for it can find private funds and private land to purchase and build this facility.
Jack,
You are a very smart person. Spread the word to your friends and family to go out and vote YES
Ford, Take a stand…yes you like this project or no you dont…..the facts are out there….use your brain and figure it out….TAKE A STAND….
Ben,
This has already been tried before, and then benderson bought all the land of the proposed site. Hence why they are offering to remodel the current base.
Ford,
There is a risk to everything in life….as a town we need to look at the opportunity cost of remodeling the Nike base, or the sunk cost we already have on our hands.
As a parent, why am i supposed to be excited about paying more for my kids to play hockey there? Ice is ice.
Hello cgoody,
Do you realize that you currently pay the cheapest amount for ice time? The rates they are proposing isn’t higher than than the other ice rinks your kids already play on. Ask your coachs when you play at west seneca, orchard park, buffalo, niagara falls, or amherst.
Why is the Hamburg Hawks organization so quick to jump on this when it’s been told it’s rates will go up. I thought the whole point was that this would prevent us from renting other (Leisure) surfaces? to keep costs down That no longer will be necessary so I am assuming that Hambug’s new ice will cost more than Leisure/Holiday’s ice? How does that serve the organization and it’s members and the town residents? Unless someone from HMHA specifically explains to me why this is so important to the league and I continue to pay money to enroll my kids in their hockey programs, I am voting NO.
Qadflo,
You need answers…..so please look at the letter the HMHA put out. There is ways to contact Jeff Walker to get answers. He will explain it fully, and I promise you will change your mind after talking to him
This project is good for our kids. We pay the highest rate at leisure and other rinks because we are not the main organization there, we are a filler….but look at the condition of the shit hole (leisure) we have our kids play in. We also have to drive there….that cost money.
Vote yes…its our town and it for our kids and our business…
cgoody,….
You need to contact Jeff Walker also….he will answer all your questions why it is the best for our organization and our kids…
I agree that Supervisor Walters and Mr. Walker need to give more definitive numbers at the next informational meeting, but here are some points all of us need to think about before voting:
1. We, as taxpayers, will be paying for hockey and other recreational services at the Nike Base whether this plan gets voted up or down. We already pay for it now and our Supervisor has said that as long as he can forsee into the future, the town will continue to use this facility at taxpayers expense. So, an opinion that taxes should not be used for an ice rink or other recreational services is a moot point and shuld have no bearing on any vote on April 28th.
2. The current facility is undercoded and a capital improvement project will be necessary within the next 1-3 years. Supervisor Walters has said that a similar project was done in 1997 carrying a pricetag of approx. $1.2 million dollars. You can only imagine the costs of a similar project now. Walters said that the project will be completed at taxpayers expense and the facility would not be closed down. If this current proposal goes through, Leaping Sports Management would be responsible for this capital improvement project as part of their entire renovation and new building, thus costing the taxpayers nothing. If it gets voted down, the taxpayers will foot the $2-3 million dollar price tag.
3. If this is voted down, Hamburg taxpayers assume 100% of the risks and costs of maintaining the rink, as is, for as long as we can see into the future. This means current operating costs for the next 10-20 years plus the additional costs of a 2-3 million dollar bond for the aforementioned capital improvement project are solely the responsibility of the town and the taxpayers. However, if this proposal is approved, the town and the taxpayers assume 0% risk for approximately the next seven years. No operating costs and no capital improvement project. Beyond that time, there is a risk that Leaping Sports Management files for bankruptcy and can no longer assume the costs of the 20-25 year bond of approximately $12 million dollars and the day to day operating costs. If that is the case, the Hamburg Development Corporation, not the taxpayers, are responsible for the bond. The town and taxpayers would be responsible for the operating costs, and one can assume we would lose money on that, but take into account the fact that we already have been losing money for the last 30 years on this. The reality is, our risk is only that in approximately 7-10 years, we may be in the exact same situation we are in right now. How much risk does that truly represent?
I agree with many that we would all feel better about this proposal if Supervisor Walters and Mr. Walker were more prepared with their presentations and facts and we can all hope that the April 22 session gives us more definitive answers. However, I strongly believe, if this proposal is voted down, we will all regret it when we see the tax bill we are responsible for in the next 2-3 years to keep the ice rink operational. I believe Walters has done a fine job of eliminating wasteful spending in town government over the last four years and this is another plan to continue this trend. I think we all need to vote YES on April 28th.
anonymous you are right we do pay the lowest , i did my reaserch on ice time costs and the hawks were way below everyone else in the area and the league we play in as well, i think as far as the hawks jumping on board,if i am not mistaken the hawks havent given there blessing to any thing yet, just the fact that this orginization needs a second sheet of ice.As far as i am concerened we need to get the Hamburg Hawks under 1 roof and this is the only way to acomplish that so get out and VOTE!!!!! YES
What’s Walker’s contact info? None of this adds up. I read the letter that informed me that under Leaping Sports the registration fees go up $45 – $55. We have “decent guarantees” about future years, what does that even mean?
You’re telling us we already have the cheapest ice, that right now Hamburg Hawks has to spend too much money on other ice surfaces. So when Walker takes over and the second rink gets built (now enough ice for Hawks) the prices still go up. Hamburg Hawks needs to take a better stand against this, because without their support, this project goes nowhere. Sounds to me that you’re letting Walker bully you around. Thanks.
In the letter..his contact info is walks2@aol.com..or number is 480-8568
call or e-mail him…he will discuss this with you.
Vote YES..yes..yes…yes…yes…yes
Vote YES..yes..yes…yes…yes…yes
Vote YES..yes..yes…yes…yes…yes
Ford, your line about Steven’s brown eyes is an instant classic!
What about the talk of roller derby and ultimate fighting leagues performing in this arena? Won’t some parents think that is a bit too violent for their children to watch?
One last question… who is going to run the restaurant? I nominate Mr. Brunner at JP’s Place on Clark Street or maybe the owner of Murphy’s on Main Street. We need food that is affordable and tastes good!
Im looking forward to this getting voted down and taxpayers suddenly realizing…..oh wait…..we already pay for an ice rink?……..oh wait, we now have to pay for a $2-3 million capital improvement project to keep it open?…….oh wait, we wouldnt have owed a dime on this ice rink for a minimum of 7-10 years?…….hmmmm, guess I should have done a little research before I followed the lead of Dick Smith, Lenny Kowalski, and Mr Sorrentino?….. oh wait, when is the last time they won an election?…..hmmmmmm guess ill keep driving to west seneca.