I wasn’t going to write anything about all this but I think in all fairness to the Hamburg Public it’s time to speak up. The Hamburg Recreation Advisory Board met last week and decided that the current proposal on the expansion and private lease management of the facility is lacking significant information for the Advisory Board to make an informed decision.
As a result we unanimously agreed to send a letter to the Supervisor requesting, once again, the info that was requested over a year ago. Last night I approached the microphone, at the public meeting, about this matter and simply asked Supervisor Walters to address the letter we sent and the info contained in it. He refused.
I then asked him why the Recreation Advisory Board wasn’t represented at any of the three public meetings on the subject and he flew off the handle. His answer was an out right lie and I will not stand for it. His answer to the public was that the Recreation Advisory Board was very much against this proposal from the beginning and we were not open minded. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
From the start, every member of the Rec Board has said that the proposal was wonderful, but we needed a lot more info before we could sign on. Because we lambasted Walters with very specific questions that he wasn’t willing or was unable to answer, he took the position we were now the enemy. His attitude extended all the way to the reorganization of the Rec Board this year. Although Walters had a majority vote on the town council until the beginning of April, he still refused to appoint many members to the board, thus keeping us in limbo and unable to meet and discuss this project.
Only after it was, ” apparently”, to late for us to make a real fuss over any of this, did he appoint the board. We were then left with one week to have a meeting and get a letter out to Walters. Not only that, but out of the seven rec meetings I have gone to, we have only had our Town Council Liaison there one time. How are we expected to do work for the public with such contempt, by Walters and the Town Council, for our time and efforts?
Last night Walters claimed that we didn’t attempt to communicate any concerns on this project to the Council or himself for more than a year. While true, that isn’t the whole story. We were waiting for information promised by Walters and Walker that never showed up. Four times we invited both of them to attend our meetings and give us updates, and four times they made excuses why they didn’t show.
I Think it’s time that we, as an Advisory Board, stand against this kind of political conduct and it’s my recommendation that the Advisory Board hold a press conference on Monday outlining the problems with this proposal, and our refusal to commit to a proposal that has not been presented to us in a manner allowing us to make an informed decision. I have also been told by our Chairman Pat Sullivan that this letter was sent to the press, so I see no reason why it can’t be printed here.
The letter to Walters from our recreation Advisory board is as follows:
The Town of Hamburg Recreation Advisory Board met for its initial 2009 meeting this past Wednesday evening, with both new members, Brendan Lovullo and Pat McAnaney, in attendance. The main topic of discussion was, of course, the Walker Proposal. As I mentioned at the meeting with Tom Quatroche and yourself last month, none of our members is opposed to the concept of new and/or improved recreational facilities. We are, however, unanimously opposed to moving forward to a referendum without badly-needed, previously requested information, including the
following:
1.. Feasibility and/or utilization studies, including market research, to support the figures that have been presented;
2.. More specific details about project financing and the personal guarantee from Mr. Andreychuk;
3.. More specific details about the cost to the taxpayers in the event of failure;
4.. Some indication of previous, specific rink construction and overall rink management experience by Mr. Walker’s group. At the last public meeting Mr. Walker indicated that they were consulting with other companies yet there is no more information about those companies or any formal relationship with Leaping Sports than we have on Leaping Sports itself; and
5.. Corrected information released to the public regarding our current arena: published data showing a current operating loss at the arena is simply inaccurate and misleading, because the arena is now, evidently,
operating at a profit. Your figures may include the Buildings and Grounds costs which we do not see; however, we believe this matter should be clarified so the public has a complete understanding of the current
state of affairs.
The members of the Recreation Advisory Board volunteer their time and take their positions very seriously. We act as not only liaisons between the Town Board and the Recreation Department, but as ambassadors to the community as well. While, again, there is not a member of the Board that would not like to see the proposed improvements
to the facility, we feel the process has been flawed. You have said that this matter has not been rushed, yet the details necessary for the Board and the voters to make an informed decision have not been available.
At the very least, we would have appreciated a copy of the referendum itself prior to our meeting. Many taxpayers are not even clear exactly what it is they are being asked to vote upon. Is it alienation, if so, where are the facts in support of privatization and alienation? Is it contracting with Leaping Sports itself, if so, where is the background
information on this company? Is it the improvements to the facility, if so, where are facts that would show the true cost? Many statements have been made at the public hearings which have not been supported and we are
merely looking for that supporting information.
Until this information is forthcoming, we have unanimously voted to withhold our support and to publicly oppose the proposed arena. You remarked to me, in our previously mentioned meeting with Tom Quatroche, that you wished that people would discuss things with you before contacting the media. I agreed at that time to abide by your
wishes, which is why the Recreation Advisory Board is writing to you at this time. If you would like to meet with myself and/or other Board members, please let me know as soon as possible.
Respectfully,
Pat Sullivan
Chairman, Town of Hamburg
Recreation Advisory Board
Great job Board!! The more I look at this issue, and the way the main players are acting, the less comfortable I am about it. The fact that we don’t even know what the referendum says at this point is really embarrasing to the town.
too little too late, the Hawks and their out of town members are working to get out the vote and most people in the town have no idea there even is a vote. walters and his crew have sunk far below the crap that the dems ever thought of, back room deals with people who have no idea about operating any type of business. washed up hockey player trying to stay in the game. lie upon lies upon lies and they cover those lies with more lies. the town of hamburg has reached a new low. maybe it is time to let the village of blasdell take over at least they have members of their board that are informed and care about the people that put them into office. walters better call his old boss because the dems can run micky mouse against him and win. people in this town can tell when the wool is pulled over their eyes, after all that is why walters got elected. just to get rid of hoak. wake up where there is smoke there is fire, even his daddy in law is trying to back him up.
Tell the trueth Mr. Ford Beckwith….We have reached out to the board…but tell everyone why some of the people on the board (Anne) have slamed the door on us…..
You guys ( most of the members) have been told the facts of the proposal…but refuse to listen.
We even had just a Dave and some member meeting at the Town Hall….Anne can tell you all about that….Dave thought it went very well…but after the March 31st meeting we feel nothing was accomplished….sad really sad…and I will tell you why….
At the end of the day
1). its about the kids and how can we help offer our children a better place to play.
2). Its about saving our Tax dollars….and not just sink more money into a building that is a losing venture….
It was told on Wednesday night by someone that does this for a living….NO TOWN CAN DO THIS WITH OUT THE HELP OF A PRIVATE SECTOR.
yes the Town can build one and run it….if your ok in losing 300,000 of tax payers money.
Recreation Advisory Board …I Jeff Walker look forward in working with you after Tuesday. I am excited for this project and can’t wait to get your input on the plans and the programs the Town will then have to offer (dont forget you will have a whole turf field to run new program)
Dont forget to vote YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES…
Oh, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff. We had a meeting on Wednesday April 15th and you were invited. You didn’t show …… AGAIN! End of story. Vote NO!
Hmmm. Allowing this proposal to go a public referendum is sinking low how? This is transparent government at its best allowing the will of the people to decide an issue. Sorry guys, but this is going to be approved and you’ll have to find something new to cry about while the rest of us are celebrating a town board that has once again reduced our taxes by thinking outside the box. And don’t forget that Quatroche and Kesner(Democrats) are for this plan as well.
hay walker, if this was such a good deal then why don’t u do it yourself? why do you want to take everyone down with you. Stand up and be a man and sign the loan with your group and leave us taxpayers alone. I will vote to give you all the land you want. Leave the town taxpayers out of your pipe dreams. let the hawks etc. support your project and stop dumping on the taxpayers. Close the nike base and all the fields, sell them off to private companies! Let them make the money and stop making us pay for a hand full of people to use the facilities!
How odd is it that I am not the only one asking these questions. From the dates on the articles I took the following excerpts from “The Buffalo Business First”, Magazine, it appears they still haven’t been addressed. It remains that while casino’s in Niagara Falls have done much better than our casino here in Hamburg, even they are cutting back because of the ecomony, and from the quotes below, “ice rinks” even the Pepsi center don’t make money. I may not be against this proposal, but then I don’t have enough, “factual” information to be for it.
With most of the citizens not even aware this vote is being taken or what it is about, I have to wonder why the statements from some of the people published below hasn’t been brought up at the “meetings”. I sure will watch how the town board handles this, because while this may not be up for vote in November “other” things are.
respectfully
P.Wolf
Excerpts from The Buffalo Business First website.
http://buffalo.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2009/02/16/story3.html
Three years ago, when Walker initially contacted Andreychuk about exploring such a project, the former forward was reluctant because making money trying to run an ice rink is difficult
Walker has no experience running a hockey rink, and only would say that his experience includes managing people. He declined to name former employers
Five groups obtained a copy of the town of Hamburg’s Request for Proposal for a second sheet of ice. Leaping Sports LLC was the only one to come back with a plan. Perhaps the others stayed away because ice rinks don’t typically generate money.
Walker has provisions for ad space and naming rights. But is it easy to make money running a rink?
“Absolutely not,” said Eric Guzdek, general manager of the Amherst Pepsi Center and assistant director of recreation. “If someone from the private sector wants to run an ice rink, they’re not going to get rich. That’s why you have recreation departments providing services to the community.”
Guzdek said the Pepsi Center has an operating profit every year, but when principal and interest are figured in, there’s a net loss.
Robert Schell is vice president of Amherst Youth Hockey and president of Pyramid Brokerage Co. He said costs of utilities and labor are extraordinary, and money made from naming rights and corporate sponsorships aren’t what they used to be. To work on the assumptions this money would be available, he said, “would be risky at best.”
As far as public-private partnerships go, The Amherst Pepsi Center had been run for a few years by a private management company. According to Pepsi Center General Manager Eric Guzdek, the town eventually turned operations over to its recreation department as a cost-saving measure.
Ford you forgot to tell the people that he had only a couple days notice about the meeting and that he was scheduled to be out of town. If you are going to tell people what is going on please do not say half truths. They have answered the questions I had and feel very comfortable Voting in favor of this project.
Pat McAnaney RAB
we cant do it our selves…same project will = 25 million and and rates of Ice and Turf for our kids will be around $400 per hour…Ill build that if you want but no organization would expect there families to pay so much for Ice.
Mr Ford why dont you post my response from earlier….
Well Pat, you had no problem voting in favor of the letter being sent to Walters saying that if the RAB doesn’t get the info we want then we can’t support it. Now you say you will vote yes on it. Make up your mind.
Well Ford, Maybe it is because I am satisfied with the answers that I got from them. At least I am willing to listen and not just shoot it down. I do believe they answered the questions from the RAC. It is not like the RAC was at Frontier to even see if they would get their answers. Their was 3 of us their and 2 of the 3 have been on the RAC for only a couple weeks. So right now the RAC should not complain if they are not willing to listen.
Folks, if you don’t think that taxpayer money should pay for an ice rink then you should be voting yes on this proposal. It takes the ice rink off of the tax rolls. Why is this so hard for people to understand? As for ford, today you don’t like the plan, tomorrow you will. Today you support our supervisor, tomorrow you don’t. Your opinions are simply based on a self serving agenda. What can I get for ford? A job? A political appointment? Even your fellow members of the rec board see through your act. Its old and its tired and now its just kind of pathetic. Time to walk off into the sunset cowboy, your day has come to an end
My answer is simply that I decide on the idea and actions of our leaders. I don’t always agree with them. In this case I think Walters is dead wrong. He has done a lot for our community with his tax decreases but that doesn’t mean I’m going to bow to him on everything. By your standard, I should shut my mouth on my disagreements if i support him most of the time. I don’t do that. I give Walters an 80% approval rating but i will still call him out on the 20% he is wrong on. I have given him a ton of credit where credit is due, and I’m slamming him when it’s deserved. Right now it looks to me that he is trying to appease the public on several issues to get re-elected. Where has that maverik gone from 4 years ago that stood and told the town how far in debt the town was?
Pat McAnaney RAB…You see the writing on the wall …Thanks Pat, I look forward in working with you and the others on the Board when this gets passed on Tuesday…..
Everyone…after the dust settles…Its about the kids, saving Tax dollars, and helping our local economy….o did I mention the kids…..think about what our kids need..
Again thanks Pat for being open to this project and listening to the facts…
We have answered every question and presented all the facts and if people choose not to listen or just plainly disregard the facts for some political reason….at the end of they day….that is what is wrong with our government people cant get passed the political BS.
OK let me interpret for you. Ginsberg is apparently Pat McAnaney of the RAB. My own interpretation of his comment is, yes he voted against the project because he didn’t have the nuts to stand for it in front of the rest of the board. Then of course he was just appointed this April, a week prior to the meeting, so god forbid he rock the boat. He was put there to support Walters and this referendum so he better damn well do it here, on my site, since he put his name to the letter condemning the lack of info on the project to Walters from the RAB. He is simply trying to mend those fences here and now before his political daddy gets pissed at him.
Mr. Walker should save the employment section from today’s newspaper because if this project does not move forward he might actually have to get a J-O-B. God forbid.
You can not stand it when you are wrong can you? You can tell since you start attacking people when they do not agree with you. Can you tell me where all the RAC board was for the meeting on the rink? I have been involved with recreation program for the last 17 years ether coaching, running CSRA, or running the boys baseball for the town of Hamburg which i feel makes me qualified to be on this board. If anyone is a political appointment it is you and we both know that. I have the best interest of the kids when I look at this project unlike you. I guess we will only agree to disagree on this issue.
As I said, it was only my opinion, but I have little respect for the opinon and actions that tell a full advisory board that he agrees that the project needs more info provided to the RAB before we can sign on and then turns around and says you heard enough to support it. Nothing new was presented from the time of the RAB meeting and the second public meeting. Only your apparent position changed. It’s not about being wrong, its about full disclosure prior to making a decision. Our letter to Walters said it all.
I for one will not support a project that is being represented as fail safe with a seven year guarantee, when there isn’t anything signed our set aside to cover the cost over that seven years. A hand shake isn’t good enough for me to risk a 10%+ tax increase if this fails.
As far as my political appointment.. I call it like I see it. Everyone on the board was politically appointed, even me and you. You didn’t get the job by interview, you got it thanks to Tom Best and Walters needing extra help on the RAB.
Everyone there knows it as well. By the way, if you were so interested in the Recreation Department and our kids then why is it I never saw you at a single RAB meeting until you were appointed?
Annoyed….who are you? you sound bitter…..is this personal?
As i said I guess we will only agree to disagree. I feel I have now heard both sides of the story and feel comfertable enough to support it. As you even stated I was on the RAC for 1 week before our meeting and do understand the concerns of the RAC but I feel the questions were answered at the last meeting at Frontier.
We were told by the town lawyers that this would not go thru without the proper collateral for the first 7 years or did you miss that point. That is better that a hand shake. They also said that they did not have to even do a referendem on this but decided it would be best to hear what the people have to say.
Also
I never knew that the RAC meetings are open to the public. The meeting schedule is not posted on the Town of Hamburg website. How many meetings in the last 6 months has the RAC had and were are the minutes posted. If this was such a huge issue to the RAC you should have been meeting at least biweekly to talk to all parties involved!
Can you even tell me when the next scheduled meeting is?
I guess we will see what happens tomorrow.
Pat, I think I worded my last statement wrong. The point I was trying to make was that although I respect you as a person and member of the Advisory Board, i have no respect for you changing your position on the issue. When we sat down and discussed it, we all agreed to not support the project without very specific info. We never got the info but now you say your satisfied.
Sorry but it doesn’t make sense to me.
Every town organized board meeting is open to the public as long as it is not considered executive session. The public is always allowed to view the main business of the town.
Ford
You never answered my question. How many meetings in the last 6 months has the RAC board had on this or any other issue. I changed my position because of my personal discussions with the town board and the members of Leaping sports. Again I had 1 week to get up to speed on this issue and I am trying to find out the facts. So if you want to hang me with going status Quo with the rest of the board go ahead. You and I both know I was not givin all the facts about this at our last meeting. As I said if this was such a huge issue WHY didn’t the RAC have more meetings on this to try to get their answers sooner.
PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION!
Sorry, didn’t catch you question the first time around. ANSWER: since day one of the proposal this issue has been at the top of the agenda at every RAB meeting. We have had tons of arguments about it, but it always fell back to more information. Information we requested and never got. We have had approximately 5-6 meetings since this was first presented. We have invited Walker on several occasions to bring us up to speed in person and he always had an excuse not to show. He didn’t even show up for the initial presentation, Walters did that one.
I agree as does every other RAB member, that if we had a rock solid financial agreement that protects the town from picking up the tab if they fold, then we would support the issue. We don’t have that and they have danced around it at every public meeting. Even our town Attorney couldn’t give us specifics. His answer was that the law provides us with remedies should that happen. Well that isn’t good enough when Walker and Andychuck are saying they personally guarantee this project for seven years.
If that is so, then put the seven years in cash up front.
I’m sure we would have met a bunch of times over this but Walters and his Town Council held us in limbo from January until April. We couldn’t meet on the issue and I’m sure that was the intent of not forming the RAB for so long this year.
The real answer would have been once in the last 6 months. Really must not have been that important.
Ford,
Please give me date sthat I was invited to come to a meeting.. I just got off the phone with Marty Deneke and he said you have been very willing to come to a meeting and I second that…I called on the end of Jan. to invite myself to a meeting…I then called every two weeks after that and Marty just lkept on telling me sorry we have not got a meeting set yet.
Answer your ? Pat.. They have NOT meet since December of 2008.
The meeting on April 15th I was invited to 1 week prier…sorry Ford That is not enough notice …right around Easter time which is the busiest vacation time of the year…
I even gave my cell number and e-mail to Marty for the board to contact me with any question….NOT ONE CAME MY WAY…
TOM Q and Marty told me the issues of the board are not with me…
Mr. Walker, you were invited to give your presentation in person more than a year ago. Walters did it for you because you wanted to on vacation to Mexico instead. Then you were invited to attend and discuss the proposal at any and every meeting we had after that. I believe we even offered to hold a special meeting just for you and you never responded. Enough said on that.
Although the issues are not entirely with just you, and yes some are, specifically your experience running such a venture, we do have a lot of unanswered questions that you should and probably could have answered. You apparently chose not to discuss them with us, judging by your absence from our meetings.
To be quite honest Mr. Walker, I can’t believe your gall coming here to argue your proposal when you wouldn’t even show up to the RAB and give us the specific info we wanted. It shows just how poor your leadership skills are. You have already alienated much of the board, whether or not they would ever admit it. I know just from listening to the arguments and statements made during our meetings that they aren’t very impressed with you.
I can’t believe that someone who will be running this multi miilion dollar rink is spending his time yacking away on the internet and arguing with bloggers. Very high level executive behavior. LOL.
That is a lie….I was never asked after last april….shoot me I was on vacation last year.
Any one that has question on if I was invited call thr Town Recreation department and ask Marty Deneke.
That is teh truth…something Ford does not know how to tell
Your response simply says it all. You cared more about yourself then you did about getting us the info for this project. Just another reason to vote no. As far as you being invited, I can remember us discussing it and deciding to invite you to attend. Doesn’t really matter now.
I believe this will fail. I don’t think Hamburg residents are ready to put up so much risk in today’s economic times. We will find out in 24 hours.
I hope Mr. Walker takes some time away from the blogs after Tuesday so he can learn the most important phrase for his future:
Would you like fries with that?
When I first came upon this blog for Hamburg First, I assumed it was an open forum, however, as I read through these postings about the rink, all I see is bickering between the parties involved.
I was disappointed not to see more input from any citizens. Questions or concerns that could have been responded to perhaps more completely than was done at the meetings was missing.
Mr. Walter assured the audience at those meetings that even if the referendum passes, but not all the T’s are crossed, or i’s dotted, to the boards satisfaction, it will not go through to fruition. If the referendum does pass, I will be watching the board like a hawk to make sure the incomplete bungling of this proposal doesn’t continue in the manner it has so far.
While this has been rushed when it could have waited for November elections… “other” things & people will be up for vote then.
Respectfully
P.Wolf
Some final points:
1. Others are now posting on this site under my name of Panama Flattering? Strange? Who knows, but its funny.
2. People obviously still do not understand this, but not for the reasons Ford and others are suggesting. Supervisor Walters and Mr Walker have answered ALL of the questions given to them. The only confusion comes from blaitant lies and misinformation from people who are opposed to this plan.
3. If the RAC is so against this plan, why were only 3 members at the final informational meeting and, of those three, why is Ford the only one who is actually against this plan?
4. This is not a political issue as Ford is attempting to make it. The plan is backed by the two Republicans, two Democrats, and one Conservative from our Town Board(Best included, prior to his departure).
5. This plan is not being rushed or pushed on taxpayers. It is a proposal that has been discussed for over 18 months and could have simply been voted on by the board. Instead, they put it to a referendum. How can people be complaining about this?
6. It has been explained ad nauseum as to why this plan would not work as a private enterprise or as a public enterprise. It has also been discussed that ice rinks are notoriously not huge money makers. This is not a privatization plan intended to make anyone rich. It is a public-private partnership that attempts to rectify the issues of a rink that is in dire need of renovations, a lack of supply to meet the demand that is here in Hamburg, and a government-run facility that is bleeding taxpayer money every year.
These are the facts of this project. I have no vested interest in it other than a desire to see that people know the truth before they vote. This is a good idea and it WILL PASS!
Panama, sorry if these scum bags are using your screen name. It would help me greatly if you put your e-mail address next to it or at least some kind of identifying code for me to utilize as knowing its you.
Second, everyone on the RAB said the idea would be great if Walker and the group would give us the SPECIFICS we asked for. As an advisory board we deal in SPECIFICS, not generalities and promises.
I for one an completely politically against government being in the recreation business at all. I would love to send this kind of stuff over to the private sector, but not at the extreme risk of a 10% tax increase.
That is the bottom line. All other BS aside, are you willing to risk such a huge tax increase in today’s business environment? This project is so much like the Pepsi Center out in Amherst its unbelievable.
The name of this story says it all.
Ford u are an ass.
The RAB is a joke.
The answers have been out there for ever. You people just don’t want to lsten.
Vote YES for this awesome project.
Annoyed, Gary Klump your a true ass too. That is why your friends with Ford.
OK enough comments on this story. to many for the public to hold interest on so post new ones on the other stories please. No more will be posted here.
Come on. Nobody ever really thought this would pass did they? Hey the golf dome is gone from the Southshore Country Club. Where did that golf dome go! Come on the Town voted down a garbage collection bill that would have saved money for everyone.